Debate with a denier. Are Mormons Christian?
It is always entertaining to have someone try and define you based on their belief and if you don’t believe the same way they do that you can’t be a member of the same “club” because his “faction” made up some new rules. The following was an exchange on FB going round and round on the issue of can Mormons be considered “Christian” if they don’t march in step with those that accept the “Trinity” Doctrine as put forward by a 4th Century Non-Christian Roman Emperor.
Glenn “Redacted”: Mormons are not Christian… They are actually a polytheistic group. They do not believe in the Trinity… So please do not lump them in with us Christians…
Glenn “Redacted”: No.. Christians believe that Jesus was God in human form… Mormons do not believe that.
Rachel “Redacted”: Mormons are Christians. Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the son of God whereas Jews believe he was a prophet not the son of God. I know this discussion is not entirely religion orientated but I must correct the person who said Mormons are not Christian.
Hey I didn’t write the script, but I did read it- but then again what do I know?? I’m a Jew who believes everyone should get married and suffer equally!!
Glenn “Redacted”: Rachel. Mormons are not Christians. Mormons do not believe that Jesus was God in human form. They believe that he was the son of God – a separate being. Since they do not believe that He is God then you do not believe in the trinity; because the trinity is the father, son, and Holy Ghost as one being.
Rachel “Redacted”: Glenn not that I like to debate…. Oh shit who am I kidding I love it !! Lol
However, you are wrong.
Christianity by definition is a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ as the son of God.
Someone who professes a belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ are considered Christian (i.e. Christ=Christian)
You do not have to believe in the trinity to be a Christian. Not all Christians are catholic.
Rachel “Redacted”: Any religion that teaches from the NEW TESTAMENT and believes it, follows it and preaches it, is a Christian. Though Mormons do have the “Book of Mormon” they still teach, live and practice from the new testament.
Dave Riddle: Glenn is 100% wrong.
Glenn “Redacted”: Rachel and David, There are two ways of defining a Christian. One way is to say that if you follow the New Testament then you are Christian. Another way would be to actual look at the core belief of Christianity, and not just the New Testament. However you being Jewish you should know that Christians are monotheistic just as Jews are. The difference is that Christians believe that Jesus was not only the Son of God, but God Himself in human form (1 being). Mormons however believe that Jesus was ONLY the son of God, and a separate being from God himself. All Christians do believe in the trinity. Its is the foundation of the religion.
In the 1st century, Christians fought the Nostics who believed that Jesus was a separate being from God. If you read the New Testament this was a huge separation issues in the early church. In 300 AD, the Council at Nicene outlined the core beliefs of the Christian faith including the trinity. The Nicene creed is recited in many churches, not just the Catholics.
Dave Riddle: Actually Glenn might want to revisit the Nicene Creed. Namely the 1st Council of Nicaea from 325 AD which states:
“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father
And in the Holy Ghost.”
Even at the Council at Constantinople in 381
“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.”
The idea that these three separate beings (although of one purpose) are in fact the same being is NOT a Doctrine actually found in the Bible. Rather it was something imposed by a non-Christian Roman Emperor as a political resolution rather than one of Doctrine.
And what is the first Article of Faith of the LDS Church?
“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
After all, to whom was Christ Praying to the Garden? Himself?
Glenn “Redacted”: Dave…. Where should I start….
All of your history of the Nicene creed is correct. The argument is that Christians are monotheistic and Mormons are polytheistic. The Mormon religion beliefs that Heavenly Father is Deity and Jesus is Deity. Though they are separate beings. Having multiple Gods makes Mormonism a polytheistic religion and is therefore violates the Nicene creed which defined the foundation of Christianity.
You said it yourself. … “And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, BEGOTTEN of the Father”. Begotten means that he is from God (as he is God). So how is Jesus begotten from God but separate entity? They are not separate. They are One.
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are monotheistic religions. Christianity differs from the others on who Jesus is. Christians believe that Christ as God. Refer to John 1 1-2: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”. I could quote you many more passages supporting this.
In regards to praying to himself (Mormons #1 argument)…. You never talk to yourself when in a place of peace? I do.
I am not bashing the Mormons. I am trying to clarify that their key belief of Heavenly Father & Jesus being separate beings makes them a polytheistic religion and therefore under the Nicene creed cannot be part of Christianity.
Dave Riddle: So the Nicean Creed being IMPOSED by a non-Christian Emperor of a Doctrine NOT found in the Gospels makes sense to you in establishing Christian Doctrine?
Will I talk to myself? Sure. Will I refer to myself as a separate being with a separate will? No.
“O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
Note in the passage from John that he says he was WITH God and he WAS a God. It does not say he is THE God. Like I said. The idea that this means a single entity rather than three united entities is not a concept nor a Doctrine found in the Gospels.
Glenn “Redacted”: I am not saying the Nicene creed is a divinely inspired document. Its just a summary of the beliefs of Christianity. You could read the Old and New Testaments of which Christianity is based or you could read a few paragraphs that summarize the beliefs of Christianity. There are several branches of Christianity (Evangelicals) that do not use the Nicene creed, but they still believe in the trinity and deity of Christ as it is taught in the Bible.
The belief of the trinity is that Godhead is one being acting separately from each other. God was not bound by the flesh till he came to us in human form (then had to play by the rules of humans). Obviously they can speak to one another as even though they are separate, they are one.
If you believe that they are separate beings, then you are a Mormon and not a Christian; as every other Christian religion believes the same core value of the Trinity and one God Jesus Christ….
Are you saying that Jesus is God or is not God?
Glenn “Redacted”: Adrian Dan’s comment of lumping Mormons in with Christians was incorrect. I was simply attempting to explain to Dan Klaudt that his statement was inaccurate..
But you are correct.. Mormons are pagans since they are polytheistic. Funny how no one has responded to whether Mormons believe that Jesus is God (Deity)? I know the answer.
Dave Riddle: Actually Glenn if you were to have visited my page you would have seen that I was out volunteering my time ALL DAY today to teaching young kids how to be safe on the road. Sorry I was unable to respond to your fallacious statements.
Now as to you nonsense. You are trying to paint Mormon belief as if this so-called “polytheism” was akin to Greeks worshiping Zeus, Poseidon and Athena rather the viewing the Godhead as being one in purpose instead of one being that may or may not cut itself into three different beings and different times that aren’t actually beings.
You are relying on a political compromise of a Non-Christian Roman Emperor in establishing a Christian Doctrine that is NOT found in the Gospels as if this was foundational to Christian belief. It is only foundational to those that accept this political compromise from a Non-Christian Roman Emperor that has not foundation in Scripture.
Note that you utterly FAILED to address the problem with the Scripture you cited that the Word (Christ) was WITH God and it does not say he IS God.
So in addition to Christ saying “not as I will, but as You will” which you view as him talking to himself simultaneously in both the first and third person are you saying that when Christ was baptized he saw himself descending to himself rather that a manifestation of the Holy Ghost doing so?
“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him
Glenn “Redacted”: You never answered my question. Is Jesus God?
Glenn “Redacted”: I’ll get into the rest of the inconsistencies and points of inaccuracies after you answer my question
Dave Riddle: I did answer you question. You just choose to play semantics and reject the answer as an answer. Just like you refuse to answer the question in any manner that I have asked
Glenn “Redacted”: This is a yes or no question. Is Jesus God?
Dave Riddle: I have no interest in “bible-bashing” with anyone. Especially someone that holds forth such a false example.
Jesus is a member of the GodHead with God and the Holy Ghost.
Glenn “Redacted”: Again. This is a yes or no question. Im confused to why you cannot answer yes or no
Dave Riddle: As I said I answered your question. You jsut refuse to accept t he answer because it does not fit your preferred and false narrative.
As Wiki note on the subject.
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often referred to as Mormonism, teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct beings that are not united in substance, a view sometimes called social trinitarianism”
Glenn “Redacted”: So you are quoting the ultra reliable source of Wikipedia. Why can you just say yes or no?
Glenn “Redacted”: I think the reason why you won’t say that Jesus is God is because Mormons do not believe Jesus is the only God. And if you believe that there is more than one God then you will support my argument that Mormonism is a polytheistic religion.
Dave Riddle: I did answer. You are stuck in a paradigm of your own construction that is NOT found in scripture. You accept the political compromise of a Non-christian Emperor in establishing what a Christian is to believe. It is you that are intolerant and closed minded to the point that you quote a scripture purporting to be an example of “physical trinitarianism” when it clearly points to social trinitarianism and then can’t answer if Christ was talking to himself and both the first and third person and then if he descended to himself. All clear examples of social trinitarianism and NOT physical trinitarianism which a Non-Christian Emperor imposed 300 years after Christ.
Dave Riddle: Polytheism is what the Greeks and Romans worshiped.
Dave Riddle: If you think that you can find in the Gospels support for a physical trinitarianism and that leads you to an understanding of God and Christ and makes you a better person in trying to follow Christ’s example great. Why can’t you afford others that same freedom in worshiping God through his son Christ?
Glenn “Redacted”: No Dave, polytheism just simply means many Gods
Dave Riddle: Many different and separate Gods. Ie: Zeus, Poseidon and Athena, etc… Each with their own forms or worship, temples and Priests. Mormons practice nothing like that. We view God the Father, his son Christ and the Holy Ghost as being of one purpose and the way back to God is via the Grace of Christ.
Glenn “Redacted”: Dave.. Regardless of my beliefs, this discussion is simply about the make up of a religion…. You said you do not believe in the trinity… You believe that Jesus is the son of God.. Separate beings… If you say that Jesus is God too, then you are polytheistic which is the opposite of monotheistic (ONE GOD). I know this is pretty mind blowing since I am sure you were taught this from birth, but what I tell you is true. And if you think the Holy Ghost is a separate being from God, then you actually believe in three Gods. Are there only three Gods in your religion, because in mine there is only One. And just like every other sec of Christianity there is only 1. If you disagree please name me another sec (other than Mormons because they are not Christians due to not being monotheistic) that does not believe in the trinity. You can’t… Now I really don’t care what religion you are or who you worship (just like I do not care if Dan gets married, but if he does I am happy for him). Our side conversation simply shows that Mormons do not believe that Jesus was God in human form and that they believe the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is not one Deity, but three separate entities. I have had this conversation with many Mormons and you all tell a similar story and you all avoid the key yes or no question of whether Jesus is God. If I asked this question (and I have) to a Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, they all say the same thing… YES JESUS IS GOD. The fact that you cannot give a straight Yes or No answer means that you do not want to answer the question or you know the answer is going to lead you down the path that is going to support my argument. Worship as you please, To each his own, and thank you for validating my argument.
Dave Riddle: And yet while you still can not (or will not) answer if Christ was praying to himself in the first and third person and if he descended to himself you think you can begin to tell me what my own system of belief is. Talk about a Trinity of arrogance, condescension and bigotry wrapped up in a single package. To you GOD denotes a physical being/personage that is sometimes separate and yet at other times joined and this understanding was arrived at 300 years after Christ and is not a Doctrine found in the Gospels and to my understanding Christ is of one purpose with God and the Holy Ghost in providing salvation and a pathway to return to God’s presence through following the will of God through his son Christ.
Glenn “Redacted”: Dave, I do not know why you are saying that my religion is full of bigotry and condescension. Since you really do not know what sec of Christianity I am from, you must believe that all Christians are bigots. Most people would not say a group that they belong to is full of bigots so you are obviously saying that Mormons are not Christians…. But I digress… I simply said that Mormonism is polytheistic (had more than 1 God) and you verified it.
Let me clarify…. He was talking to himself (God) in the garden. Since he was in human form, he would talk to himself in the 1st and 3rd person. I do not believe God is a fleshy being, but he did take on human form (for 30 years or so) and became flesh. There is only ONE GOD in my religion, where you have three. God is not bound by space or time.
Since you do not seem to understand that what I am saying (or choose to close your mind to another perspective) this is from the Bible and not the Nicene creed. Let me quote a verse from 1st John 5 verse 7… “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” This is from the KJV (which is what you use).
Dave Riddle: Please quote for me where I said your religion ” is full of bigotry and condescension.”
Glenn “Redacted”: “Talk about a Trinity of arrogance, condescension and bigotry wrapped up in a single package.”… Dave Riddle….
Glenn “Redacted”: Were you not referring to the Trinity in this statement..
Dave Riddle: And to whom was that comment directed? Care to look at the sentence preceding it? I certainly don’t see anyone other than yourself.
I take Christ at his word and not the political formulations of a Non-christian Roman Emperor 300 years after Christ. See John 17:3
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Glenn “Redacted”: The same Trinity that all Christians believe in…
Dave Riddle: No. I was alluding to the three descriptions I gave for your attitude.
Dave Riddle: That single package being named Glenn “Redacted”:.
Dave Riddle: I don’t expect you to actually read this but here it is nonetheless…
The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent – Jeffrey R. Holland
Glenn “Redacted”: That is a very bold statement.. you do not even know me… so this is the Christianity that Mormonism teaches… result to name calling when someone questions your faith… Be proud of your polytheistic roots…
Why don’t you post up a video (not from a Mormon website) that supports your argument. You cant because all of the other secs of Christianity do not support your doctrine.
Dave Riddle: LOL!!!! So a Libertarian should provide a source from a Marxist to support Hayek over Keynes?
Glenn “Redacted”: A libertarian does not pretend to be a communist.
Dave Riddle: LOL! You are too funny.
Glenn “Redacted”: You are saying that Mormons are part of the group called Christians… However you cannot find another website that supports this other than your own… Not much of a cross reference..
Dave Riddle: I know you plenty well. To you my saying that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are of one purpose somehow means I’m a Greek running from morning prayers to Zeus over to Poseidon’s Temple in the afternoon to make offerings before boarding an Athena Cruise Line to the Virgin Islands. All while you are relying on the political compromise of a 4th Century non-Christian Roman Emperor to tell me how to interpret Scripture and understanding that the original followers of Christ did not share.
That is the definition of arrogance, condescension and bigotry. Especially if coupled with your demand that I provide a source of my belief limited to people that have your same understanding.
Glenn “Redacted”: If you were part of the group ‘Christian’ then you would have the same belief as other Christians… and would be able to find a non-LDS site that supports your argument.
There are many other religions that are polytheistic that are not Roman or Greek. So no I do not think that you are sacrificing goats at the alter before boarding a boat. LOL… The Hindus & the Buddhists are the first to come to mind. Neither claim to be part of Christianity. They also do not believe that Jesus was Deity.
I have been supporting my arguments with scripture from the book which you say you use during worship; not the Nicene creed. The book of 1st John goes into this in depth. I do not think anything in my bible is that of arrogance, condescension and bigotry, but of course you were only saying these things about me and not the bible…
Again… I am not sure why you choose to call my Christian beliefs those things when you claim to be apart of my group.
Glenn “Redacted”: I have to go hang a ceiling fan … i will be back on later if you want to continue this…
Dave Riddle: If my belief in Christ was based on your definition of “Christian” from the political formulations of a 4th Century non-Christian Roman Emperor then you would be correct that I would fall under your definition. However, I don’t fall under your definition as defined by a 4th Century Non-Christian Roman Emperor but rather I define my belief from Christ’s own words.
I figured you would not read that link (it had a video too) since it would not conform to your chosen narrative.
You gave one scripture. As I previously commented:
“Note in the passage from John that he says he was WITH God and he WAS a God. It does not say he is THE God. Like I said. The idea that this means a single entity rather than three united entities is not a concept nor a Doctrine found in the Gospels.”
I also provided you a scripture from John which you ignored.
Dave Riddle: I have no problem continuing to go round and round in a circle with you. However, feel free to post it on my own page so as to spare Dan and his other friends from having to endure this dialogue. If any are actually wanting to listen in my wall is open to Friends of Friends so feel free…
However, I will be taking my Wife to dinner in a few minutes